From Gold to Whiskey: Tvvin’s Journey into Tokenizing Real-World Assets

00:00
To be able to trade commodities such as gold and silver is really appealing, especially for people that want to get into those markets, store some of their value into gold, but don’t have access to the funds required to buy some of these large quantities of these commodities that are sometimes needed. Now this platform, Tvvin, allows you to do so, and they’re going for the securities play where they’re trading in securities.

00:26
rather than going for the DeFi play where these regulations could disrupt the industry. I have Thomas Tallis, the CEO of Tvvin, joining me on this episode to talk all about it, the progression, the development, everything that they’ve done so far, the launch of their upcoming ISPO, and all the details around it as well. So let’s get into this interview. Yeah, gotta do it like that. You’ve been listening to the Learn Cardano podcast. Gotta get it hype.

00:52
So Thomas, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. Good to be here. So I’d just like to get a little bit of an understanding of how you got into the crypto space yourself and then a bit of an explanation as to what tvvin is. Sure.

01:18
So I ventured into this space back in 2016, beginning of 2017, with a concept and a project called CoinHarbour. This was an alternative platform for people to save for their pensions. And we took it to the FCA, the regulator in England, with backing, with investment. And to give the team and the product a lot of credit, it got quite far with the FCA. The question…

01:47
though, that was being asked, understandably, from the investors was how long until sufficient licensing or relevant licensing would be in place for retail. And back then, and probably to a certain degree today, the answer was, we just don’t know. But then that, of course, spooked the investors, which meant the project was put down. But I have taken a red thread.

02:16
from those coin hover days right through to Tvvin, which is, for me, it’s critically important that we find alternative tools, financial products that can be widely accessible, that give a global audience more options than they have on the table today. So that has been with me since my initial sort of getting into crypto, like I said, back in 2017.

02:45
definitely part of the fabric of tvvin today. Tvvin with two V’s, purposely so. So the two V’s represent tvvins. And that is because we are taking real world assets, starting with precious metals, gold, silver, platinum, palladium. So if you like, they are one of the tvvins. And the…

03:11
the tokens that the assets are underlying or sitting behind are the other tvvin or the other side of the tvvin analogy. So hence we have tvvin, two Vs, the tokens and the assets that stand behind the tokens. Now this idea of digitalizing or tokenizing real world assets is a little bit new to a lot of people. So can you explain to everyone what’s the benefit of actually

03:40
doing this? Why would you want to want to tokenize assets such as those commodities? Right. Well, if we take gold, but we could also take very rare whiskeys as another example, which is completely different from gold. But we can use the same example is that to buy a kilo of gold or a substantial amount of gold on your own, you need to obviously have the funds available, depending on what the market rate is.

04:10
Again, as we speak, there are financial tools. I mentioned these very rare whiskeys. They never see light of day, actually. The whiskey never hits a bottle. They stay in barrel and they’re sold mostly to, you know, high net worth individuals or at least within the accredited side of the market. And some of these barrels that are sitting in distilleries in Scotland or Ireland are worth millions and millions of dollars. So,

04:39
The assets, these real world assets, whether it’s gold, whether it’s this precious whiskey, whether it’s minerals, they are available, but in the units that they’re available at the moment, they are not accessible to 99.9% of a global audience, a retail audience. If you tokenize these assets,

05:01
you fractionalize them and therefore you can break down the asset itself into smaller parts and make those smaller parts which are then affordable, accessible to a global audience. And actually for the owner of the asset, the one selling it, this can be also very positive because the likelihood is that if you’re selling a very rare barrel of whiskey, you’re gonna sell it to one individual at X.

05:28
But if you are fractionalizing or tokenizing that same asset, you’re probably going to get more if you break it down and have 1,000 or 100,000 or whatever that breakdown or figure is of people owning the same asset. So it’s a win-win on both sides. Now, when you’re tokenizing these assets, the whiskey barrel one sounds like a really good example. And there’s the actual physical asset backing the tokenized one.

05:58
With your platform and everything that you guys are building, how do you guarantee or show evidence that the assets that you are minting on chain have real world backed assets backing them up behind them? Sure. So it’s going to you know, just like these assets are ordered today, we will continue to order to make sure that the purchases of the tokens, whether it’s a gold token, silver token or a risky token can

06:27
can also at any time have a peek in and see exactly how many tokens we have sold and versus how much of the asset we’ve purchased from the sales of those tokens. In fact, with blockchain, we’re able to increase the traceability or the transparency of this auditing because right now, if you buy say a unit, a barrel of whiskey,

06:54
sure, you’ll be able to probably speak to your broker or call the distillery and check, is it still there? Is it nice and safely in storage? But with tvvin, what we’ll be doing is every time we’re selling a token linked to one of these real world assets, we’ll be having an on-chain auditing system that will allow people from the comfort of their own home, check in and make sure that

07:22
Again, like I said, the amount of tokens that that tvvin has to that date successfully sold and therefore, and therefore brought funds in represents the amount of asset that’s in tvvins name. That’s super exciting to know how that all works. And of course, this all brings in a secondary markets and everyone can trade them because they’re native tokens on blockchain people can trade them on DEXs, decentralized exchanges and all that as well. I’m assuming that’s all possible.

07:50
Sure, I mean, it’s subject to licensing. These are WAs that we will have on our platform. They are classified as securities. So licensing and compliance with the regulator is needed before trade is allowed. But the good thing with being classified as securities is we know precisely what type of regulation and licensing we need. There’s no…

08:18
Like with Micra at the moment, there’s still some question marks regarding DeFi. But with the existing securities licensing, there are no question marks. These licenses have been obtained for many years by multiple, multiple financial institutions. So that’s the positive of actually going down the securities route is that there is no second guessing or sort of wandering.

08:47
how regulation or indeed future regulation might be applied to the tvvin platform. We know precisely what we need to obtain and how it would work. So that’s actually a blessing. Something’s working right for us. So really you’re modernizing the whole experience of buying commodities and using blockchain to increase the visibility and transparency and audibility in this whole entire experience.

09:15
Absolutely love the use case and how you’re implementing it all. In terms of the entire platform that you guys are building with tvvin, where are you up to in terms of the development and everything around that at the moment? Earlier this year, when we realized my co-founder Lisa and I, we realized that tvvin was now becoming a reality and that we would be able to come out and launch with the brand publicly.

09:44
The question that we had was who should we bring in to the team when it comes to tech, because obviously tech is going to be crucial, understandably so. And what we quickly realized is that we should do things slightly different. Rather than trying to find an individual that has got the pedigree to come in as say a tech lead or CTO, wouldn’t it be wiser to find a full snack?

10:14
agency who we could actually team up with and they would be from the get-go integrated into tvvin. That way we actually secure all of the necessary resources without having to minutely plan exactly how and when we’ll need those resources. We will just know that by having a fully accessible tech team, those resources are there.

10:41
regardless of where or when we need those resources. Whereas if you bring in an individual as great as they may be, then they themselves will in turn, as and when we need the development, will have to go and then add on and build their own team, which of course is fine, but of course that in itself will delay the rollout of the MVP and the platform. So we secured a partnership, and I’m delighted to say with Thespian.

11:11
which is an agency, a very well renowned agency within Cardano. They’ve also got huge experience in other chains as well. And we partnered off with them before we went public with the brand. And so Thespian is the development, our technical development partner. And Philip, who works with Thespian, is the tech lead. And there’s the link with Philip, Thespian and tvvin.

11:43
That’s great. I just checked out Thespian to see their website and everything that they do as well. So it looks like a very interesting company. I’ll be digging into a little bit more because I haven’t heard of them myself personally. But it’s really good that you guys managed to get that partnership early on. It really does take care of a lot of their development headaches and everything else around it. And someone that can share the vision with you guys is really important too.

12:06
I absolutely totally agree. And yeah, it’s that shared vision that gives tvvin the credibility that also when we’re talking with it to be investors or other partners, you know, knowing them knowing that there are some very, you know, experienced minded people within the tech space who understand that what tvvin is doing is really

12:30
moving in a direction that so many people believe is going to be a considerable and profitable step within blockchain and crypto. Having that sort of support is something that, I think, was looking back, it was a wise decision to go after a partner. The fact that we found there’s been and they are such a

12:59
credible and well experienced partner is something that’s really giving us a lot of USPs. I was looking at your roadmap to see where you guys are at in terms of timelines of delivering the product and when people actually see a thing in place. But I did notice on that timeline that you guys have started your ISPO, initial state pool offering. So perhaps we’ll briefly touch on that and find out a little bit more about the details and then have a look at the

13:27
long-term vision and everything that’s coming out from the funding and that standpoint. Sure. Well, Lisa, my co-founder, my partner in tvvin, she was heading up the first execution of an ISPO back in 2021. That particular ISPO, okay, it was absolutely in a different market,

13:56
drew an enormous amount of support and traction from the community. And we’ve understood, and especially what Lisa’s understood because she oversaw the marketing and the brand build regarding that first execution of the RSPA back in 21. What she understood is that the community need to and should have an option to come in.

14:23
and also be part of a project if they read the material and they also believe this is something after they’ve done their own due diligence, that this is something for them. So we’ve taken the ISPO, we’ve actually created an ISPO 2.0, which makes it a lot fairer, especially for small stake pool operators. So we’ve got a special scheme that if you…

14:50
if a small stake call operator loses delegation to tvvin, actually there are ways in which we help to compensate that loss and bring the delegation back to them after our ISPO closes. So this is all out and you can find the, it’s called ISPO 2.0, it’s available via our doc section on our website, so anyone that wants to read up more about how we’ve rejigged.

15:19
and remodeled the ISPO to make it a more democratic tool, because it is a fantastic tool. It allows projects to raise funds, and at the same time allows community members to get into projects that they want to without the sort of the, sometimes the high entry point because private sale have a minimum threshold that you have to meet, et cetera.

15:47
So, yeah, that’s something we wanted to, and we did start with, to show the community that, you know, we are now rolling out, we’re moving into our fundraising position so we can then get to MVP. And that this is something if they wanted to be part of, they certainly can be. That’s brilliant. I’d absolutely love the ISPO model. It’s a very low risk choice for a lot of people just being able to delegate to a state pool and earn those particular tokens for your ecosystem.

16:17
tvvin X token. I’m so sorry, Joseph. The platform token is Twix. So it’s a little bit of tongue in cheek. So we had a little bit of fun. So the platform is tvvin, and then the tvvins tvvin is Twix, the utility token. That’s why it’s Twix. Just on that note as well, any of your listeners may want to check out something we call our Meta paper.

16:44
which is the light paper that we initially rolled out, but we’ve turned it into a fun narrative. And there’s two characters in the meta paper, our tvvin and twix. So if you wanna check that out, and it’s not a long read, but it gives a nice sort of overview of exactly what tvvin is in a sort of more storytelling way. That’s a nice way of putting it. I’ll make sure that link is in the show notes for everyone as well.

17:10
And I just wanted to highlight that the total supply that’s going out for the ISPO is like 21% and is only going for about 40 epochs. So it’s already currently live and be going to the end of this year. So 31st of December, which is a epoch four, five, seven. So it’s still got time to join in on that to ISPO if you’re interested in the project. Now in terms of the MPMVP and what you guys are delivering, what’s the roadmap looking like for the rest of this year? And, uh,

17:40
At what point would we see a product being launched? We’re confident that we can get to MVP, which is our gold back token early part or quarter one next year. The good news is that the gold that we are tokenizing is there. So we know precisely where it is. We have an initial allocation, 10,000 kilos, which is an enormous number when you convert it into a dollar amount. So the gold and subsequent.

18:08
products which would be silver, platinum and palladium or just as accessible to tvvin. The platform itself is actually split into two. There’s an institutional side and there’s the retail side and we’re using two different jurisdictions. So for the accredited or institutional, we’ll be working with the GFSC which is the regulator out of Jersey and Channel Islands. And with retail…

18:36
we’ll be working with the GFSE, which is the regulator after Gibraltar. The institutional is a much shorter, straighter road in terms of what we need to obtain from the regulator. And in fact, we can already start selling to institutional clients with a prospectus that we raise. And we can then log that with the regulator. And actually from just raising a prospectus.

19:05
we’re able to move straight into institutional initial trade. From the retail side, again, we can write a prospectus. We will be writing a prospectus. And you can write up a prospectus for every security that you intend to offer to the market. So our goldback token, which is ticker VVG, is a security.

19:33
and that won’t require its own prospectus. If we were looking at VBS, which is our silverback token, that would also require separate prospectus. The difference between the institutional and retail is that when you submit the prospectus for the retail side, not only do you present it to the regulator, but they have to then approve it. So the difference is that for retail, there is extra scrutiny that they need to say that this prospectus is

20:03
is ticking all of their boxes and making sure that the protection for the retail investor is there. Once we have presented each prospectus and sticking with gold, so the prospectus against the BBG token, we will be able to do limited trading, which is really our MVP.

20:31
where we can offer our goal token to the retail market. And once we have got to that point, we would then start and of course seeking advice from our legal counsel finding what side of the licensing and the compliance should we be going after first. What I do know already is that the first, one of the first…

20:58
goalposts, which we actually intend to get already in the autumn of this year, so autumn 2023, is to be a VASP, the VASP, Virtual Assets Service Provider Status platform. With a VASP, that would actually allow us to publicly sell our utility token Twix. So just hopefully not confusing any of your listeners. From where we are now in the summer, we’ll be going…

21:27
In Gibraltar, which is dealing with the retail side, our first goal is a VASP status. Once that VASP status is in place, that allows us to publicly then trade and sell our utility token, simultaneously, we will be then writing a prospectus for the VBG token. So we can then, once that’s logged and approved by the regulator, we’ll be able to turn around and sell the VBG.

21:56
BBG token to a retail market. Thereafter, continuing with retail, we’ll be going after further licensing. And this could be a part of the MIFID licensing, which is a security licensing that’s been written and applied now over many years. As I said earlier, it gives us that clarity of exactly what we need and how we can apply that licensing to our platform.

22:25
But after we’ve gone from the VASP to the Prospectus, we’ll be going then for full licensing, which will give us a full operational retail platform. Flipping back over to the institutional side, the licensing and the compliance that we will be obtaining from the JFSC, that’s a more, not necessarily simple…

22:54
exercise but it’s not as convoluted, it’s not as long as the retail side. The institutional is, they have a lot more responsibility themselves as we all understand when they go into an investment proposition as an accredited or institutional investor, a lot of the illnesses lie on their side. So the, what we need to get from

23:21
where we are now to a fully operational platform is a slightly shorter road and a slightly straighter road too. That sounds really good. And it sounds like, but correct me if I’m wrong, US citizens will be able to use the platform to purchase the virtual BAT gold. Is that correct? Because it’s all under current regulations?

23:49
It is certainly my understanding, and of course, this needs to be checked out as we approach our MVP. And of course, we will leave that to the legal counsel that’s representing tvvin to make sure that this is something that is certainly viable. But yes, it’s my understanding that as a security, as the gold token and our other RWA-backed tokens are classified as securities,

24:19
the conditions that are set by the SEC will be made available to an accredited audience in the US, subject to, of course, to KYC, to AML, and all of the other sort of processes that one would expect when trading a security. So that is certainly our intention, but we would be, rather than saying a definite yes now, I would leave it in a more…

24:48
sort of like when we’re told that we’re able to do it, then we certainly will be doing it. Yes, we’ll wait for the lawyers to come in and charge you a whole lot of fees to be able to pay for it. But yes, it is the, you know, it’s definitely a step in the right direction once we’re able to serve an accredited side of the market, then of course, then we are moving towards what would be ultimately.

25:18
an open retail offering, which of course, but you need to take it step by step and you need to make sure that whatever we’re doing is in full compliance and making sure that we are keeping the dialogue open, not just with our own regulator from where we’re incorporated, but also with the sort of global, call it team of regulators, where we intend to be selling and the markets we intend to be covering as we move forward.

25:48
Now, is there anything else that we need to know about Tween and what you guys are putting together? Yes, is we were starting with gold and precious metals because that makes a lot of sense to most people. But really, what we see is needed is alternative stores of value. What I mean by that is that if you if you have some funds to invest.

26:16
Your options right now is to put those funds say into a bank use one of the mechanisms That a bank would offer But we what we’ve seen this year, which has made a lot of people stop and think banks are Being either liquidated. I mean we no one saw for example credit suites coming You know the way it did which just demonstrates that you know, you know, it’s it is so precarious. It’s so

26:45
You know, the, you know, Fiat is there, there is, there is so many uncertainties and that is partly, in my opinion, down to the lack of transparency that Fiat structures have. It’s very difficult for people to peer in and see exactly what’s going on and get a true take of a situation. So you’ve got this big question mark about how safe are banks? I was speaking actually to an Argentinian chap the other day.

27:13
father of two, he’s got a good job, a good life in Argentina, but he along with many others when it comes to Friday, they’re wondering whether the bank’s there on Monday. That’s their real life scenarios that they are sort of these, will it still be there?

27:43
And we do see that quite rapidly, especially with the overuse of quantitative easing that all central governments are doing, basically there is an unprecedented amount of printing money. And so that sort of, you know, that debt mountain that keeps on getting bigger is only further increasing the pressures on fiat. And therefore, it’s our prediction that we will see, you know, fiat in further unstable waters.

28:13
making a bank or mechanisms that use fiat more unpredictable. Going back to the point, if you have some funds and you want to put them somewhere, where do you place them? Then, of course, you have the other side, which is crypto. You know, I and many others love crypto, the sort of control and the freedoms that it gives you. But at the same time, we’ve seen…

28:40
that crypto is wildly fluctuating. It’s virtually impossible for the average retail investor to know that if they go into, whether it be Bitcoin or Ethereum or any of the other more sort of wacky meme coins, what’s going to happen? So you have these options which are limited in each their own, they have their issues in each their own areas.

29:09
But all the while, what we’re seeing is that real world assets are actually, you know, they’re plodding along, they’re keeping their value, in fact, they’re increasing their value. So when all of this sort of drama is happening in fiat and in the fiat structures and in the crypto markets, we’re looking at gold reaching the other day in all-time high, it’s all-time high. It’s never actually been traded at a higher amount. And this is, you know, this is…

29:36
When you go in and you delve into assets like precious metals, you realize that when there is instability elsewhere, then a lot of investors, they go back to what they believe is to them a safe haven, and that is gold and other precious metals. But importantly for tvvin, what we’ve seen and what we’re building out is much more of an ecosystem. Because there are so many assets out there.

30:06
that are illiquid assets that you can then turn into liquid assets if you bring them on chain, which is why we have this unchain, on chain attached to our brand. It could be minerals. It could be agro commodities like cocoa coming out of Ghana. We’ve already touched on the whisky side. It could be some of the most precious apple orchards in the world, which is in South Tyrol.

30:35
we’ve already had a fascinating conversation with a cooperative down in South Tyrol about how we could tokenize the thousands of acres of apples that produce some of the world’s best apples in the world. Again, it’s an asset, but people right now don’t have access to these types of assets. But the beauty of tokenization, and when really what tvvin is grasping with two hands,

31:02
and we know that people are going to want these types of assets, is that, like I said at the start, it’s opening up the accessibility through tokenization. So they can, rather than just topping up their pension that they’ve always done, keeping their fingers crossed that the pension will grow, will be there when they need it or whatever it may be, or sort of going back into the roller coaster ride within crypto, that they can actually…

31:32
benefit from everything that blockchain has to offer because the token obviously is a crypto asset. But understanding that the underlying value, the intrinsic value behind each of the tokens that we bring onto our platform has a real world value that people widespread believe, understand.

31:59
And that’s really what’s helping to sustain the performance of their token and therefore give them hopefully a more stable and more reliable store of value for their funds. This is a super, super exciting what you guys are putting together. Now, I thought it just came into my mind before we wrap this interview up.

32:22
Is it possible for me to use your platform to tokenize an investment property that I might have and then allow other people to buy tokens of that property? Right, right. It’s a really great question. I’m so glad that you finished with that question because the answer is yes. The tvvin will have its dow and also in order to satisfy the regulators, as we’ve already mentioned, we’re working.

32:52
hands-on and very transparently with them. So to them, DOWs aren’t really something that they want necessarily to see connected with a project. But we will be utilizing a rather interesting piece of legislation that came and rolled out in 2017 called the Companies Foundation Law 2017.

33:21
And what that allows, tvvin, is it can have a footprint in the Cayman Islands. But this type of limited company is not a limited company like we would know. It doesn’t have the same type of shareholding structures or indeed the same type of directorship as a normal limited company. It’s almost like they have…

33:49
these stewards and these stewards are their role or what that company’s mandate is, is to listen to what a DAO and its membership base is deciding on. So it’s able to bring decision-making conclusions that a DAO would like to see come into effect, but it’s able to connect that to an entity.

34:17
that does have a footprint, that does have a base, that does have a fixed abode. And therefore, because we’re working with the regulators in Jersey and Gibraltar, that’s going to satisfy them because we won’t have this dow just floating around with no fixed abode where there is no anchor, if you like, making it sort of answerable to somebody somewhere.

34:43
I just wanted to quickly explain the structure and how we actually can implement a DAO, as we will be. But back to your question, the DAO and the membership base will be able to make certain decisions and one of those could be, okay, so tvvin has started with gold, they’ve done the other three precious metals, maybe we’ve moved into the precious whiskey area, etc., etc.

35:12
you can propose to the DAO that a new RWA ought to be listed and implemented into the platform. It’s the DAO then that would be able to take these proposals. A little bit like if you’ve come across NounsDAO, which is a very successful platform, we’ve taken a leaf out of their book.

35:42
where if you hold a certain asset, which in our case is our Twix utility token, then that will allow you to make proposals to the DAO, and therefore bring some amazing, and I’m sure some amazing, real world assets that we haven’t even thought of to our attention. And if the DAO is concluding that, we should be…

36:09
focusing on this or that or whatever it may be. It could be an agro commodity. It could be precious stones. It could be minerals. It could be real estate. Eventually, we’re going to be seeing a tokenized market for real estate. It’s a bit more tricky because how each region values a square meter or a square foot ranges enormously. Of course, there’s big differences between retail.

36:38
real estate and commercial, but still that’s coming and that’s going to be a huge area where actually you can tokenize your property and not necessarily need a mortgage from a bank anymore because actually you’re able to sell a proportion of your property through a tokenized structure. That sounds pretty exciting to me because we don’t have these banks breathing down our necks in the same way.

37:09
It’s a long answer to your relatively short question, but yes, we will be allowing new ideas to be looked at and where there is merit, of course, and where a new RWA has the ability to be tokenized and therefore…

37:36
give people even more options and where they could potentially put their funding in their investment. Yeah, that’s one of the mechanisms and the very cool ideas that we’ve got waiting in store for the Dow. Super exciting what you guys are putting together. The banks should look out. Having all these tokenized assets is a scary world for existing industries.

38:05
Now, last question I have, where can the community find out more about what tvvin is building, the roadmap and where’s the best place to engage with you guys? Well, so tvvin, as we mentioned at the start, 2V, so T-double-V-I-N, tvvin.com is a good anchoring point. You can then delve into our doc section and from there read everything that we have.

38:32
we’ve been releasing starting with the the initial meta papers I touched on which was tvvin and twix our Our two tvvin characters riding out with that with the story to tell And then there is the light paper that we then released More or less simultaneously with the meta paper and of course, there’s our white paper version 1.0 Which is a you know a bigger read but a you know more important document for those that are seriously

39:00
looking to learn more about tvvin, about the direction that we’re going, what we’ve already achieved because we have achieved an enormous amount in terms of regulatory understanding and knowing exactly where and when we need to push certain buttons. And of course, it’s a lot more information that anyone that’s

39:27
giving tvvin a serious consideration, can go in and find some answers or find their answers. What I will say is that if there is anything that people don’t find or something is not clear, again, they can contact anyone in the team with any question, we know whether it’s in Discord or Telegram or indeed LinkedIn, and post their questions and we are making sure that we’re answering people’s points quickly.

39:56
and giving them the clarity that they need if something is not clear. So tvvin.com and yeah, delve into the doc section. There’s some great medium articles as well that sort of open up and explain more about, for example, what we’re doing with the ISPO. As I mentioned, we’ve redesigned it to make it a lot more fairer for the small stake pool operators, which we understand are so fundamental to the Cardano ecosystem.

40:25
They’re fundamental to the sort of the, you know, the sort of one of the main pillars and beliefs about the democratization of opportunity that KADANE stands for. So, you know, and what we were seeing was that the ISPO, although as we agreed, Pete, it’s a great tool, it was being slightly skewed away from, I think, what…

40:53
perhaps the initial idea behind it was about. So we’ve brought that back into line to make it really something. Well we’re very proud of this idea because it shows our commitment to Kadano. It shows our commitment to the core beliefs and understandings of what Kadano is built on. So there’s a lot of medium articles like ISPO 2.0.

41:21
and also why real world assets, you know, and then we’ve of course, we’ve spoken about this here, but you know, plenty more to read up on. So yeah, and I’d be delighted to take anyone’s questions. Just reach out to Thomas and I’ll get back to you. Thank you so much for all that. And I’ll make sure all the links and references are in the show notes for this episode. Sounds great. Thomas, thank you so much for joining me on this episode and we’ll chat again soon.

41:47
Now if you enjoyed this episode, you can find all the show notes and references where you can find out more about tvvin and what the team are developing there at our website learncadano.io and if you really really enjoyed the episode, please consider giving me a thumbs up, click subscribe, click on the notification bell, only takes a few seconds to do and works wonders for the YouTube algorithm. And with that, I’ll see you in the next video.

42:08
Yeah, gotta do it like that. You’ve been listening to the Learn Cardano podcast. Gotta get it hype. Crypto is what we like. But this is not investment or financial advice. Gotta do your research, cuz it’s risky. We know it is. This show is educational and it’s informative. Crypto’s the future, really? It ain’t no debate.